In which I wonder if God can be trusted Part 3

I am in the midst of an ongoing discussion about the problem of evil and suffering.

Part 1 is here
Part 2 is here

Part of the reason that I am grappling with this question is because of my background. My parents began to follow Jesus in their thirties when my sister and I were quite young. We started off at a Presbyterian Church (which is ironic, given how much I don’t like the whole neo-reformed movement these days. But that’s another post. Or not.). We eventually started to attend a charismatic non-denominational church. It was the 80s and we had zero exposure to Christian traditions. My Dad in particular was decidedly anti-establishment and had no desire to attend the usual church with the vestments and festivals and big language. We found community and, truly, life in small churches across Western Canada. We worshipped in community centres, hotel ballrooms, school gyms, movie theaters and Seventh Day Adventist Churches (that didn’t meet on Sundays so their spot was free). We sang choruses, danced a lot, listened to sermons and considered ourselves lucky if the 9:30 service let out before 1 o’clock in the afternoon. We had healing lines, kicky songs, preachers that said the word “sucks” sometimes, women preaches, egalitarian values, racial diversity and anointing oil.

Our churches had tambourines.

I love me some tambourines.

We moved into a smaller movement called Word of Faith but rather than engage in the excesses of the movement that occurred in the USA, our churches tended to preach an emphasis on being “blessed to BE a blessing” as opposed to “being blessed so that you can have a personal jet and be happy and handsome your whole life.”

Although that sounds good to me these days.

I know a lot of people struggle with the Word of Faith movement; I am one of them. (I stopped self-identifying with that movement/theology in my early twenties.) However, I don’t have an ax to grind against the movement or its most visible proponents/teachers. Mainly because I grew up there and I know their hearts, even the “TV preachers”. I know that they love Jesus and that their motives are usually very pure. (I also know some of them are charlatans.) I see the excesses and the over-realised eschatology, usually the result of literal readings or simplistic story-telling. Even where I know that they are wrong, I give the benefit of grace. And the movement does teach a lot of wonderful truths, long neglected by the traditional church. I choose to remain gracious and not judge their motives. I hope that I have found a balance between “thinking critically” and being critical. In short, you won’t find me bashing Word of Faith. That’s still my family, literally and figuratively.

(Rob McAlpine wrote a very helpful book for me called “Post Charismatic?” If you’re grappling with the charismatic movement or one of its splinters (like Word of Faith), it’s a balanced look at how you can remain close to those teachings without the excesses. It helps me balance the truth with the excess.)

Anyway.

My tradition left a big hole that I am trying to fill. My background never addressed suffering or evil in a way that felt satisfactory to me.

Because our movement placed such a strong (occasionally inadvertent) emphasis in those days on control, I grew up almost believing that if you had enough faith, then bad things wouldn’t happen to you. If you knew enough Scripture, if you wrote enough Bible verses down and pinned them to your bathroom mirror, if you prayed often, if you “prayed the Word”, if you never confessed anything remotely negative, then you could affect the outcome every time.

If you were broke, sick, lonely, unemployed, depressed or addicted, then brother, you just needed FAITH.

I had an underlying sense that if someone got sick or died or suffered, then somehow…it must be their own fault.

Maybe unconfessed sin? Maybe not “real” faith? Because it wasn’t possible – it wasn’t conceivable – that God fell down on his side of the bargain. Because the bargain was this: I give up my miserable existence and in return, I become healthy, wealthy and wise.

The thing is that I’ve seen too many people that I know trust and love the Father not get their miracle to believe that anymore. I know that they “did everything right” and somehow, still, it didn’t end the way they thought it should.

But here’s the thing: I no longer believe that it rested entirely on them to begin with. After all, is it really all about how well we perform? How well we do at these things? Like God is a judge or a scorekeeper? Is our faith just a modern method of buying indulgences, pleasing a God that is not moved with compassion? Of course not. That’s ridiculous. God is above all else, Love. And what is Love? For starters, it never gives up, never loses faith, always hopes and endures through every circumstance.

We emphasized so much that “THE WORD WORKS – EVERYTIME“.

Well, yes, it does.

The Word does work everytime. (Now, when Word of Faith says “The Word”, we mean the Bible. But now I have had my mind changed…the Word is actually Jesus. Nother post again later. I better start writing this down.)

I look at the Scriptures and I see that those that loved Jesus, who walked with him, who were, for all intents and purposes doing everything right. And yet lived a life far from the American dream. Transient, tortured, martyred. Laying down their lives in a million small ways. I believe they experienced joy and peace, fulfillment and security. But I don’t read that they experienced what the world would usually expect or value. If anything the Church should have an uneasy sense about the power that the world gives, eschewing the ways of the Empire…after all, it’s notoriously fickle.

I am grappling though because I DO believe in a good God. I do believe in God as Father, as my Papa (go read The Shack, please). I do believe in supernatural healing. I believe that God meets my physical needs. What’s more, I’VE EXPERIENCED IT. So it’s too late to tell me it doesn’t work. I am not a cessasionist. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and , yes, they make a difference in my life, every day. I believe that God honours a cheerful giver and that tithing is scriptural.

I believe, I believe, I believe! I practice, I practice, I practice. My orthodoxy = my orthopraxy.

His heart is always for us. And how much do I love my children? Then how much more does the God of the universe love them?

How much does he also love me?

How much does he also love you?

So I’m left with a big hole in my theology that my background can’t fill. I haven’t found a satisfactory answer in my faith traditions. So I’m looking for an answer now.

What about you? What was your faith tradition? How did you grow up hearing about evil or suffering? As always, I value your insights.

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  • Mary

    Hmmm. Interesting take. My faith journey has been different. I grew up in a cessationist, dispensational, “bible” church. When I was about 18 I encountered the Vineyard and I felt “home” at last. I knew there was something more powerful, diverse and joyful than what I grew up with.

    I agree in general with your thoughts. I understand what you are getting at when you ask “is it all about how well we perform?”. It is only recently that I have been listening to and practicing things like positive confession and exercising my faith. I think I lacked a big gap in my understanding of faith. I grew up faith was just believing in Jesus for my salvation and that was it. That it has no other purpose.

    I’ve been learning that there is more to faith. But it’s not about “getting” what I want but exercising the trust I have in God to meet my needs and to be my ulimate source. Joyce Meyer says that she had to stop and spend a year seeking Him above all else, regardless of what God could give her. Even if he gave her nothing, he still is everything because of what He did on the Cross. And that is enough.

    I think it comes to balance. I don’t think there is anything wrong with positive confession, speaking out in faith. But we have to include in that the attitude “Though he slay me, yet will I trust in Him”.

    I don’t look at this as some kind of magical “The Secret” kind of mentality. I know that bad things happen and will happen (I’ve experienced enough to know!). This isn’t some kind of prophylactic against pain and suffering. But it is a way to exercise trust.

    I can see, however, how the suffering aspect is a gap in your faith journey. I think that’s not uncommon on the Western Gospel where we are so removed from the most severe suffering most of the time.

    I have NO corner on suffering. None. I just know I’ve been through some tough things but there are far more tougher situations out there that I am thankful to have not experienced. But I will say growing up with my father in a wheelchair, a victim of polio, and seeing the everyday things that he struggled with and was able to overcome…and the acceptance of the things he could never do, I learned what it is to die to self. I am still learning. Never achieving but always on the journey.

    I think that scripture is replete with teaching and examples of suffering of all types. I know I will only understand in part right now. Later I will understand fully. If I could figure it out, then I’d have no use for God. But it doesn’t make it much easier to see the suffering. I only know that we are the only ones who have Hope. That all will be made right someday.

  • Mary

    I would love to hear your thoughts on the neo-reformed movement. LOVE to hear if you choose to share. After spending about 4 years in a very staunch reformed church, I have a special interest in this topic. I no longer consider myself reformed for many reasons (although I’m not Arminian either).

  • Trait

    I grew up in much the same way you did. In fact, I can add one more church venue to your list: barn. Yep, my family went to a charismatic cowboy church that met in an actual stock barn on Sunday mornings, complete with hay bales and manure. But, I digress.

    I remember hearing the same things growing up. God wanted us to be healthy, rich, and prosperous. If something bad happened it was because you didn’t tithe enough or your faith wasn’t strong enough. I didn’t question it much then because it made sense. Why wouldn’t God honor the rigid adherence to a faith formula? I didn’t really start to analyze that line of thinking until my last year at ORU and after that when I matriculated out of the bubble. It was at that point that I began to think and read for myself as opposed to accepting what I was told. One of the seminal events in that transformation was the abhorrent chapel at the end of my senior year in which Leroy Thompson urged everyone to pull the lever and scream “money cometh!” I still shudder when I think about it.

    Like you, I’ve struggled with the idea of evil and pain in the world. I’ve come to the conclusion that some things cannot be fathomed and must be left to God in His soverignty. My understanding of the world is so finite and His is so expansive. I can’t figure out why some people don’t get healed and have crappy things happen to them in what seems to be a great injustice. But, I’m confident there must be some greater Plan in motion. It may never be revealed to me, but I must be faithful that it exists.

    I admire that you’ve been able to offer grace to some of the Word of Faith movement. I’m not sure I can do that. I think that much of what “they” (the TV preachers particularly) preach is completely false. They do no service to people by watering down the gospel and making everyone think they can be rich, healthy, happy, etc. by supporting X ministry and having X amount of faith. A more thoughtful and probing analysis of the Bible would be more appropriate. However, it’s hard to fill stadiums with the masses be promising a deeper understanding of the faith as opposed to riches beyond measure.

  • brittaney

    Sarah, this is why I love you. You are so honest in your journey, plus you make me think and question for myself.

    I remember the first time I heard someone speak on suffering.It was in response to something else or an aside in a sermon, but anyhow whatever they said it was not something I had heard before. It was basically that suffering could be a good thing and was undervalued. I got pretty pissed off about it, because I was raised like you were, Word of Faith, say it claim it, reap and sow. I had never heard much, no anything about suffering, because honestly who would sit through that sermon?

    In the last year, maybe two God has really taken me on a journey of understanding suffering. I still don’t have all the answers and never will, but I am so grateful for the experience. God has really expanded my Christian faith to include the uncomfortable and the unfathomable mysteries of God that I may not know until Heaven. Those mysteries and unanswered questions are part of our journey of faith and part of the grand adventure of knowing God. And I have learned to love it! I have learned to appreciate suffering and what it brings. Now when I read verses about persevering, count it all joy when going through various trials,to not grow weary in well doing etc. I say amen, Lord, let it be me! I’ve gone off the deep end a tad, because I’m almost wanting the opportunity to suffer so I can prove God. I feel like I’m missing something in my Christian walk by not having fully suffered. (Deep end, I told ya) Suffering is something to value. Suffering is a kick in the butt, to force us out of our comfort zones and cause us to grow. Suffering is a sweet incense to God an act of worship. Suffering produces positive results, faith, patience, strength and perseverence. Suffering teaches us compassion. Suffering allows God to shine in us, His strength through our weakness. Suffering cements our faith, values and beliefs. Suffering is a precious, precious thing and I think the church has done us all a disservice in not teaching us this. We should be thankful for suffering, not dreading/avoiding it or pretending it doesn’t exist. My perspective may be a bit too radical for most, but that is what God has been teaching me lately and I have been better for it.

    An aside to Trait; I really want to visit your cowboy church, that sounds like a total blast. Woudn’t it be something to have themed churches?? There could be a gypsy/hippie church, a business church that met around a table in a board room, a circus style church with animals, etc. The possiblities are endless!

  • Anonymous

    Have you read anything by Dr. Paul Brand? He was a missionary doctor to the lepers of India. He made some amazing breakthroughs in the treatment of leprosy (Hansen’s Disease now). He has written several books about the value of pain – they’re on my shelf, but the lights are off, and I don’t want to go stumbling about at this time of night. But I’ll try to remember to look them up for you. He draws some great parallels between what he learned about his study of pain and our spiritual lives.
    ~Annie

  • Angie Neal

    This post was so amazing. You put into words things my heart has struggled with for a while now.

    It seems as though I could tell your story as my own, only changing that my parents were the pastors, so add that element to my hurdles to overcome! I love your honesty and courage to ask tough questions of our faith while still loving our God.

  • TheMaskedSparrow

    Thanks for sharing your comments.

    I have never attended any form of Charismatic Church so don’t have that teaching to work through. (Believe me, I have others though LOL)

    I believe that suffering does happen in the world and in the lives of Christians. I have just finished reading Job and boy did that man suffer. I am also reading ‘If you want to walk on Water you have to get out of the boat’ by John Ortberg and that makes you think.

    Suffering should produce in us a more Christ-like character because it should force us to turn to God. I look back at my life and know that my suffering led me through years questionings before that happened. I am not a very good learner.

    When I think of suffering etc I think of the countries where the church is growing vibrantly and the persecution that happens in them. God is sovereign over these dear Christians and their faith is bigger than mine. I don’t know that I would be able to hold on as they do. Suffering and evil produces such a faith in them that I can only dream of.

    My mind also turns to Christians who have been such a blessing to me and they loved Jesus with all their heart, soul and mind. These people suffered in all areas of their lives and the love of God shone from their faces. They know that the Jesus who went to the cross for them would get them through the troubles of a fallen world. And they also held on to the thought that this world is a temporary place and that Heaven was waiting for them.

  • Slater

    I admire your openness and desire to press into God’s truth about suffering and the bigger issues. Obviously, it is very difficult to have a brief comment on a subject like this. Please check out http://allthingsworkforgood.blogspot.com
    for a great posting dealing with this topic of suffering, hope, loving God and trusting Him because He is good and it will be all good. That’s all for now.

  • Lalania

    It is an interesting conundrum. I deal with this issue on and off in my life. Over the last few years its been over the issue of healing. God has answered numerous prayers in our lives (my husband’s and mine) but this issue, He has not – or not in the way I would like. I have come away feeling, ‘What, am I not good enough for healing?’ Maybe I haven’t prayed enough, asked the right way, or been persistent enough. Or I don’t have enough faith for it to happen. It is disheartening. Where do we get this feeling? Obviously from the teaching we receive on prayer and the Word. It is sad that we come away with these feelings since we are also taught that we are the apple of God’s eye and that He loves us unconditionally and wants to give us what we ask in Jesus’ name.

    With the bigger picture of suffering in the world, I don’t think we will ever have a complete answer on this one. In the Bible, Adam and Eve gave their authority over the earth to the Devil when they gave into temptation and from what I understand, God will not intervene unless someone asks Him in prayer. A lot of this comes down to the power we have to choose and the easy default is to go with the flesh and all the nasty depraved ideas this can lead to. It is a terrible state of affairs when it is children involved – I have recently become aware of the depravity involved with the children in Cambodia and prostitution. A person can buy a child there and do anything they want to them up and including killing them. How do we reconcile that with a good Father? Challenging!

    I personally am not sure how to reconcile this personally and look forward to your onward journey through this question.

  • Karen Johnson

    I wasn't reading your blogs back in May when you posted this, thus the late response ;) But then at that time, I had just found out I was expecting again (our 14th preg with 9 live dc) and I hadn't experienced our stillbirth at that time. I found out in Oct that Samuel was dead, likely about 7 weeks already at that point, and carried him another 5.5 weeks until Nov. I sure had lots of thoughts about 'If God is good, all of the time, then why are we suffering?' What must I do to change the situation? How to create a resurrection!
    I don't know any of the answers. But what I do know is that while I labored to deliver Samuel, I felt the most tangible presence of Jehovah Shalom than I have ever ever felt. In the presence of my sorrow and disappointment, I felt God's love and peace. I can't explain it. I don't understand it. But I just know. God IS love.

  • Erin

    I'm reading & commenting on this over a year late!
    God is not the author of sin & suffering. But, He does work sovereignly in our lives through all that. And, I am grateful! We have been down some hard roads.
    I believe that all of creation, the earth & all people are affected by sin. "All creation groans under it". It is because of sin that we suffer. But, that doesn't mean it is a particular sin of a particular person.
    Does that make sense?

    Thanks for sharing this. I understand why you want to offer grace to the Word of Faith movement, since that is your "family". I think we can extend that out to the rest of the body of believers, even if we don't have such personal connections with other "kinds" of Christians.

    My family was in the Charismatic church when I was really little.
    My dad has a story about a Benny Hinn. My parents were at one of his healing conferences years & years ago. Mr. Hinn tried to heal my dad of some ailment that he said my dad was suffering. But, my dad had nothing remotely close to what he was going to be "healed" of. Ha!